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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 10:13:03 AM
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Hello everyone,
I guess I am a lucky guy. I bought this start without knowing that it is the very 1st version. It has a very small s/n 5800366.It is a very good number for Chinese. Some Chinese are obsessed with numbers. A car license plate with a good number could sell for much higher price.
This Start has some details difference even from a 1959 version.
I still don't know how to attach photos. I will upload images from other sites later.
Cheers,
Zhang |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 11:15:30 AM
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| Yes, this is very early vertion. 1958 was first year of Start production and little bit more the 1000 cameras was made that year. You should put pictures to wiki! |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 3:50:38 PM
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| But this one is '59... I wonder if there are more difference between 59 and 58... can you tell by looking at the picture of 59? |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 4:21:06 PM
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The early Start has a plexiglass or lucite top on the winding knob. I don't think it cracked, but probably got scratched up a lot.
Regards, Bill
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 11:38:53 PM
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Vlad,
I can only see a difference. the rewinnd release button on my 58 camera is smaller with collar around it, while this 59 version is the same as my 1961 Start.My 58 Start also has two screws at the back of the pentaprism, and a metal film pressure plate.
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
But this one is '59... I wonder if there are more difference between 59 and 58... can you tell by looking at the picture of 59?
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 07 2007 : 11:42:51 PM
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| Ah! So there there are a few subtle mechanical differences.. thanks Zhang! |
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 1:32:05 PM
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interesting Start cameras...
this one is hand made whith hand drawing engraved KMZ logo....
but only #60xxxxx...sorry  |
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 1:34:01 PM
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ooops...
here is
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 3:56:27 PM
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Wow! this what I was hunting for so long without success  I'm not clear only is this turner hand made or it made by KMZ? If by KMZ how many was prodused? |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 3:58:15 PM
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| And would be possible put detail pictures of this attachement to wiki please ?? |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 08 2007 : 7:29:41 PM
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I thought KMZ made these turrets as well?
Vlad. |
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 1:05:20 PM
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ok ...some details:  
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 1:12:41 PM
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and what about that ?:
for me ..a very bad , good idea...for use
 
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 1:15:12 PM
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| just for info : my pictures are free , use it as you want (just put on "alain & Claire Berry collection courtesy" please) |
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seka
France
29 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 8:12:14 PM
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This is another picture of the same Mermoz37's Start, shown by himself at Notre-Dame d'Oé exhibition in nov. 2005.
Photo taked with an Helios 40 around f:5.6 on TMax3200 film (poor indoor lighning conditions !)
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 09 2007 : 10:28:12 PM
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Wow! Great pictures! Thank you very much for posting them!!!!
So, this turner was made by KMZ? Indefinitely? Any info when and how many was made? Did Princelle showed same unit?
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2007 : 02:21:07 AM
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Hello mermoz37,
Many thanks for your generocity. This is a very special camera. Amazing indeed. I am not clear how do you fire the shutter? I only saw a button for the normal lens, but how about the other lenses?
Kind Regards.
quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37
just for info : my pictures are free , use it as you want (just put on "alain & Claire Berry collection courtesy" please)
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2007 : 03:29:18 AM
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note 1: there is a trigger on handle and then a lever system , you can fire whith any lenses.
note 2 : the KMZ logo is hand engraved (not exactly shape as factory logo.
note 3: this in Princelle's is property of J.Daniel , my old friend , and the brother of mine (little bit different on shaft) |
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2007 : 04:38:07 AM
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Many thanks! I think many French and Italian people are interested in Russian cameras.I saw quite a few Italian sites with rare and interesting Russian cameras.I saw some early Kievs in Venice that were not for sale!
Cheers,
Zhang
quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37
note 1: there is a trigger on handle and then a lever system , you can fire whith any lenses.
note 2 : the KMZ logo is hand engraved (not exactly shape as factory logo.
note 3: this in Princelle's is property of J.Daniel , my old friend , and the brother of mine (little bit different on shaft)
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2007 : 08:10:36 AM
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quote:
note 3: this in Princelle's is property of J.Daniel , my old friend , and the brother of mine (little bit different on shaft)
Yes I see different handle in Princelle! So known at list 2 existing turners! May be more? Anyone? |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2007 : 11:57:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by okynek
Yes I see different handle in Princelle! So known at list 2 existing turners! May be more? Anyone?
See "Sovetskoe foto" ("Soviet photo") magazine, 1962 year, number 1, pages 30--31. Article by S. Marchenko "Turel k Startu" (The ring mount to 'Start')...
I think that all this devices were hand-made (of course, made in a machine-building plants, but illegally). May be some -- in KMZ... ;) |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2007 : 1:42:57 PM
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quote:
See "Sovetskoe foto" ("Soviet photo") magazine, 1962 year, number 1, pages 30--31. Article by S. Marchenko "Turel k Startu" (The ring mount to 'Start')...
Where can I see "Sovetskoe Foto"? Is it on the Net? |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2007 : 6:56:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by okynek
Where can I see "Sovetskoe Foto"? Is it on the Net?
No... :( May be somewhere, but I never saw this article in the Web.
P.S.
The first page of this article:
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Edited by - Zoom on Dec 11 2007 09:08:24 AM |
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 03:13:22 AM
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why "illegaly" ?
thre was in most factories a challenge "1000 ideas" to promote genious workers ....but "THE" plan  |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 06:19:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37
why "illegaly" ?
Because illegaly... Because a worker should work, carry the output programme, but not filch a metal, use a factory lathes and so on for himself using or for a private sales. In the socialism or in the capitalism -- all is same. |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 10:05:50 AM
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Alain, you have to live there to understand.
1000 ideas??? That was a propaganda!!!
In reality if you offer to change, or improve anything, if you find ways how to save money, or offer new product, you momentarily became enemy number one to your boss and all the bosses of your boss and all they bosses too. They was telling to you straight up: "Are you need more then we do? What, you like to be special?"
Why do you think for 70 years Fed could not get out of basically same camera, invented by the way by Leitz?
So the only way to make something better is to make it illegally. And usually you will have every opportunity for this. But better not to be caught!
And this is why I’m personally value such homemade items as much as prototypes of the cameras. Not same with most of the newly improved cameras.  |
Edited by - okynek on Dec 11 2007 10:11:27 AM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 10:16:12 AM
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Okynek, I do know that trend very well.. People got their government jobs and they did not want any change, they come to work, spend couple of hours working then doing god knows what.. it all really depended on the directorship... but I did notice one trend.. I am from Republic Of Georgia (Грузия) so things tend to go there exactly the way Okynek described, slow, never changing, people slacking off at work, I remember going to my dad's work place and women sat there and knitted most of the day instead of programming...
...but that being said, I noticed that the closer to the center (Moscow), the more honest people seemed to behave in their workplace, people actually really did do the 5 year plan seriously and were more "communistic" and worked harder... Look at Kransnogorsk Zavod, look at how many great ideas they had and then compare it to FED for example... It does seem like KMZ directorship was closer to the TSK (ЦК) and was more pushing for progress and for workers new ideas, maybe because directorship was afraid of the leadership being close by... And I'm talking about 70s-80s era...
Vlad |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 10:24:28 AM
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Still very few of such homemade creations, with help of the publications, end up on production line. This happens with FM/SM radio published in “Radio” magazine, with computer “Specialis” from magazine “Modelist-Constructor”.
Can it be happened with Alain's turel to? Can KMZ, using drawings from “Sovietskoe Foto” made few of this turners officially? |
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 10:34:11 AM
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| There are prototypes workshops in those big factories that made all sorts of new products. Could this be made by one of these shops? Then it is legal. |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 10:39:24 AM
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| Vlad I agreed with you. KMZ was more exception then a rule. Arsenal came up with few really innovative cameras too, like Kiev 10 - big departure from Conax. But Fed and Belomo not so. Fed may have some excuses. They mostly did military stuff and parts for aviation. Camera was to them unwelcome residue, (or so I hear). But same was with all camera factories, specially with Arsenal who has more then 30.000 employee with less then 500 involved in camera making. |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 11:39:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by okynek
...Fed may have some excuses. They mostly did military stuff and parts for aviation. Camera was to them unwelcome residue, (or so I hear). But same was with all camera factories...
Indeed, all Soviet cameras factories, with the exception of FED, were under MOP -- Ministry of defense industry (armament). FED was in MAP -- Ministry of aviation industry (air force, of course ;).
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 12:13:32 PM
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hummmm....
could you tell me why some engeneers and technician get some factory work at home ? (like some capitalists did)
i havve experiences from Baikonour (joint venture between french-Soviet factories about spatial research and satellite launch) and we had no problems to make out off series materails when a good idea appear...
but one more time , ideology is a very bad basiis for discuss... |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 2:16:42 PM
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Alain I wonder if you can rephrase your question?
People took work to finish it at home, because they fill obligated, they believe work what they do can make the difference. They believed in something. Or may be they have enthusiasm. And on the back of the mind they was hoping that they will be noted and may be rewarded or promoted. They did it knowing that nothing of above will happed. The good job and salary will go to relatives or friends of the bosses. But, you know, hope dying last. So they did, they work. Arsenal known to have folding beds next to the machinery and special places where after 12 hours shift you can relax for few hour and get back to work. This constantly happens on the end of the month. Or may be that was just tails floating in town? Company I work with make workers work Saturdays and Sundays, and for 12 hours/day, when they have to meet monthly quote. Hopefully things change now?
May be I did not understand you question correctly? |
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 5:17:32 PM
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ok , i agree this information.
thanks |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1984 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 7:45:47 PM
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I had a Three Lens Turret Zenit E Made in 1980, unhappily it (and Me) were victims of theft. A pity.
Those Turret Starts are simply fantastic.
but...
Who had ever seen a Lightmeter Pentaprism Start?
The Exposure meter is the same found in Iskra 2 cameras. |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2007 : 8:56:31 PM
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| Do you have it ????? Is it made by KMZ ???? Amazing!!! I never heared about lightmeeter on Start. May be on Start-3? |
Edited by - okynek on Dec 11 2007 8:57:13 PM |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1984 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 12 2007 : 10:18:54 AM
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| Zoom will tell us...... |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2007 : 12:03:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo
Zoom will tell us......
Thank you, Luiz... ;)
But it is too much uncertainty. I, alas, do not know all... :(
Indeed, there was Start-3 (1963 year)*, but all details are unknown.
*) -- here there is a mention about it:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/history/four-millionth-camera.html
"With automatics..." -- it must be lightmeter... |
Edited by - Zoom on Dec 12 2007 12:07:35 PM |
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2007 : 08:21:43 AM
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| It is strange to me that KMZ abandon Start line. Very few lens was made. Probably push from the top because Start was in direct competition with Kiev SLRs? |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 13 2007 : 09:41:57 AM
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Okynek, Start was 900-something roubles.. (about 4 months of engineer salary) very few could afford it, thus I think they made so little..
Vlad |
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2007 : 09:57:55 AM
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Vlad,
I believe that price was old rubles, it should cost 90 new rubles in 1958? |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 13 2007 : 10:01:25 AM
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| No I think it's the new roubles, Zhang.. Start was ridiculously expensive.. probably the most expensive amateur camera. (I'm not talking about Vostok or Rakurs).. |
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2007 : 10:08:36 AM
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Hi, okynek,
I have seen a Start with a s/n 58002xxx.
quote:
Originally posted by okynek
Yes, this is very early vertion. 1958 was first year of Start production and little bit more the 1000 cameras was made that year. You should put pictures to wiki!
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okynek
759 Posts |
Posted - Dec 13 2007 : 11:05:12 AM
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| Well Start was intended for professional use. Mostly by correspondents of big and small newspapers. I'm not sure if Start completely full fill this niche. But 900 new rubles it was more like year salary for engineers( after college yang engineer got 85 rubles per month, and senior earn around 100 rubles per month in 60th). So may be 900 in old rubles. After all Zenit at that time cost around 50 rubles and FED something like 40 rubles. Big money for that time any way. It could be problem to sell indeed. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4247 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 13 2007 : 9:12:28 PM
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Ok, I did some research. You guys are right, according to this pricelist... http://www.zenit.istra.ru/qa/qa-prices.html ... Start cost 125 roubles... so 900-something had to be pre-reform money.. Still it's quite a lot...
Vlad. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 13 2007 : 11:01:44 PM
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I have heard that the Leningrad was the most expensive consumer camera of that time. Is that correct?
Regards, Bill
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2007 : 07:18:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
http://www.zenit.istra.ru/qa/qa-prices.html ...
See the note on this page bottom. Some prices, unfortunately, not confirmed...
P.S. START price confirmed: 125 Rubles. |
Edited by - Zoom on Dec 14 2007 08:28:35 AM |
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2007 : 09:37:39 AM
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Hi,
Here is an image of this 5800366 Start.
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zhang
Kievuser
310 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2007 : 09:42:15 AM
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IIRC, the most expensive production hobbist camera was Kiev 88 TTL at 850 rubles.
quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
http://www.zenit.istra.ru/qa/qa-prices.html ...
See the note on this page bottom. Some prices, unfortunately, not confirmed...
P.S. START price confirmed: 125 Rubles.
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Dec 14 2007 : 7:23:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kievuser
IIRC, the most expensive production hobbist camera was Kiev 88 TTL at 850 rubles.
It was ~20 years later. An inflation... ;) |
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seka
France
29 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 14 2007 : 8:43:00 PM
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Beautiful camera, Zhang...
Thanks to make me see what's a 1st vers. ! |
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Topic |
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Start s/n 5800366
